I'm just talking about how adaptive codecs can be a bad thing in an enterprise LAN environment. Things like Skype and MOC can take advantage of extra internet bandwidth with adaptive codecs, but when they go over a shared WAN pipe it's potentially very bad. Maybe they can change the codec on the client for when they're on the LAN, I'm not sure. It's more of a statement about adaptive codecs than it is about any one client.<br>
<br>-nick<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Matt Slaga (US) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Matt.Slaga@us.didata.com">Matt.Slaga@us.didata.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">How does this differ than using IP Communicator through a PhoneProxy? </span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:matthn@gmail.com" target="_blank">matthn@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:matthn@gmail.com" target="_blank">matthn@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Matthews<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> Dennis Heim<br><b>Cc:</b> Jason Aarons (US); Matt Slaga (US); Eric Butcher; Andrew Dorsett; cisco voip<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</div>
</div></span></p><div><div></div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">The other big thing is that you're generally using Skype and MOC on the internet rather than in a corporate environment. There's a different requirement when you've got a fixed T1 for bandwidth rather than fighting against other traffic through a cable modem or something. By that I mean this - if your client is losing packets, you can increase your voice bandwidth to include reliability and generally succeed in increasing the quality. If you've got a fixed bandwidth and you're sharing it with other clients whose fail-safe is to increase bandwidth, it's only going to make things worse.<br>
<br>-nick</p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Dennis Heim <<a href="mailto:Dennis.Heim@cdw.com" target="_blank">Dennis.Heim@cdw.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The thing to remember is when something doesn’t work on skype everyone goes oh well it’s pretty much free, versus on enterprise voice, people want it fixed and resolved.</span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dennis Heim<br>Network Voice Engineer<br>CDW Advanced Technology Services<br>
11711 N. Meridian Street, Suite 225<br>Carmel, IN 46032<br><br>317.569.4255 Office/Home Office<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">317.569.4201 Fax<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">317.694.6070 Cell</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="mailto:dennis.heim@cdw.com" title="mailto:dennis.heim@berbee.com" target="_blank">dennis.heim@cdw.com</a><br></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.cdw.com/content/solutions/unified-communications/" target="_blank">cdw.com/content/solutions/unified-communications/</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p></div><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Jason Aarons (US) [mailto:<a href="mailto:jason.aarons@us.didata.com" target="_blank">jason.aarons@us.didata.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:02 AM<br><b>To:</b> Dennis Heim; Matt Slaga (US); Eric Butcher; Nick Matthews; Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip</span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Amazing how Skype and Office Communicator generally work so well, that adaptive codec magic is pretty good. I’ve never thought of Skype as clunky, but it is getting a little bloated </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">J</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You can use Windows 2008 Group Policies for QoS in enterprise (IP Communicator as well), the interface makes it easy.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dennis Heim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 11:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> Matt Slaga (US); Eric Butcher; Nick Matthews; Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Still seems clunky to me. If it still relies on the adaptive codec then it really isn’t CAC. If I am reading what is stated, each subnet has the same treatment?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dennis Heim<br>Network Voice Engineer<br>CDW Advanced Technology Services<br>
11711 N. Meridian Street, Suite 225<br>Carmel, IN 46032<br><br>317.569.4255 Office/Home Office<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;">317.569.4201 Fax<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">317.694.6070 Cell</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="mailto:dennis.heim@cdw.com" title="mailto:dennis.heim@berbee.com" target="_blank">dennis.heim@cdw.com</a><br></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="http://www.cdw.com/content/solutions/unified-communications/" target="_blank">cdw.com/content/solutions/unified-communications/</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Matt Slaga (US)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> Eric Butcher; Nick Matthews; Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p>
</div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">No, it is not based on RSVP. It is very similar to the way Cisco does it, but instead of regions/locations, they do it by subnet and still rely on the MS adaptive audio codec to adjust bandwidth as necessary.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> Eric Butcher [mailto:<a href="mailto:Eric.Butcher@cdw.com" target="_blank">Eric.Butcher@cdw.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matt Slaga (US); Nick Matthews; Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Just curious… is their CAC based on RSVP?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: black;"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: black;">Eric Butcher</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;">Cisco Unified Communications Engineer</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: black;"><br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: red;">CDW</span></b><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: gray;"> Professional Services</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: gray;">11711 N Meridian, Ste 225</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: gray;">Carmel, IN 46032<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: black;">(</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black;"> 317.569.4282 - IP Phone<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: black;">(</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black;"> 765.744.1458 - Mobile<br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: black;">*</span><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; color: black;"> <a href="mailto:eric.butcher@cdw.com" target="_blank">eric.butcher@cdw.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt; color: black;"><a href="http://www.cdw.com/" target="_blank">http://www.cdw.com/</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Matt Slaga (US)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:23 AM<br><b>To:</b> Nick Matthews; Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">No server needed now for Exchange 2010 MWI.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Microsoft also partners with Polycom, Snom and several other vendors for hard physical phones, so you are not locked into just software driven audio.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Microsoft also before didn’t tout QoS and CAC, in my opinion mostly because they didn’t have a solution. Now that they have CAC, they strongly suggest your solution have it. You can also perform full QoS in your environment with Microsoft, however you are going to have to trust the endpoints to have their DSCP set correctly. In most enterprise environments, this is really a non-issue as they can be set at an administrative level through group policies.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I’m not touting one vendor over another, they both can solve specific issues based on your specific needs. What it sounds like what you need to do is perform a review of what your exact requirements are based on business objectives and future needs and compare that to which vendor can meet most of your objectives. I doubt you will find any single vendor that will answer all your objectives.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> <a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net" target="_blank">cisco-voip-bounces@puck.nether.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Matthews<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> Andrew Dorsett<br><b>Cc:</b> cisco voip<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cisco-voip] CISCO UC 8.X solution over MS OCS/Lync 2010. Why?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;">As well, look into the hardware requirements in the case of a wan failure at a branch site. From what I understand it requires a server at each site, where in the Cisco design it's a single router. <br>
<br>From what I remember, their presence isn't standards based and may have to pay for another server to interoperate. As mentioned, how comfortable are you with a third party requirement for support of a contact center? I think they needed another server even for MWI, not sure if that's been fixed. E911, probably another server. <br>
<br>Microsoft also believes you don't need QoS because of their adaptive codec. As someone who used to troubleshoot voice quality problems on a daily basis, I whole heartedly disagree. I'm also not fond of requiring stability in my operating system to have a stable voice platform.<br>
<br>-nick</p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Andrew Dorsett <<a href="mailto:vtadorsett@gmail.com" target="_blank">vtadorsett@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p><p class="MsoNormal">You didn't specify if you were a multi-site operation or not. But have you considered QoS, CAC, and perhaps RSVP when integrating with existing room based VTC? Do you have a requirement for VTC? I would ask Microsoft about their support for multiple codecs and how they handle integrating to a traditional TDM provider. What about e911? How do you handle a situation where an entire office is Lync clients and the power goes out, what about 911 functionality? Or how about the cleaning crew at night...What if one of them has a heart attack, where's the physical phone to dial 911 since they don't have a laptop/desktop? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for soft-clients in the right environment, but there are still requirements for hard-phones that are often overlooked until someone is running around looking for the medics...</p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Andrew</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 7:12 AM, JA Colmenares <<a href="mailto:sforcejr@yahoo.com" target="_blank">sforcejr@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</p>
</div><blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 0in;" valign="top"><div><div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;"><h2 style="margin-bottom: 4.5pt; line-height: 16.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91); font-weight: normal;">If you were asked why choosing CUC 8.X over OCS/Lync 2010 when the costs of setup and licensing for the MIcrosoft solution are much cheaper?. Please take my word about being cheaper due to particular circumstances in our company.</span></h2>
</div></div><div><div style="margin-bottom: 11.25pt; overflow: visible;"><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;">
<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);">What would your reply be? , I need help justifying the CISCO option. I read this document:</span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt; min-height: 8pt;">
<span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"><a href="https://webmail.duckcreektech.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=7d9a2103295c47799dacf3a191228bc1&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cisco.com%2fen%2fUS%2fsolutions%2fcollateral%2fns151%2fC11-604516-00_Evaluating_UC_Solutions_WP.pdf" target="_blank"><span style="color: black;">http://www.cisco.com/en/US/solutions/collateral/ns151/C11-604516-00_Evaluating_UC_Solutions_WP.pdf</span></a></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt; min-height: 8pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);">I need a more objective and unbiased resource. If you believe you can still take a "jab" on the cost aspect, elaborate on it. But I am looking more on the benefits and robustness of the solution. A Hybrid solution is not an option. Either all CISCO or all Microsoft.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt; min-height: 8pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);">Not even CISCO partners in my area have been able to provide solid answers to this question.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt; min-height: 8pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);">Thanks</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt; min-height: 8pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);"> </span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; line-height: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(55, 75, 91);">John</span></p>
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