<html><head></head><body>I'm going to reply to the rest of this later on when I've got a real keyboard, but I want to reply right now to 'moderate the main list'. <br><br>Unless we can come up with 12 to 15 people to put on that moderation Q, it's not going to do the thing that it was designed to do, which is provide people with *timely* notification of outages.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On December 12, 2019 12:15:11 AM EST, Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class="k9mail">On 12/11/19 8:51 PM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">I certainly do not expect replies to my outages@ posts will end up <br>going to outages-discussion@.<br></blockquote><br>Would you say the same if replies to outages had gone somewhere other <br>than the list for the last X years?<br><br>Yes, the proposal is a change.<br><br>Is said proposal good or bad? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">This is not intuitive.<br></blockquote><br>I'll give you "unexpected" based on "current and previous behavior".<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">No mailing list I've used for the past 30 years has behaved that way.<br></blockquote><br>I've been subscribed to multiple "announcement" mailing lists or similar <br>"broadcast" mailing lists that direct replies somewhere other than the <br>mailing list. Some direct to an info@ or customer-service@ type <br>positional email address. Others direct back to the submitter (either <br>explicitly or by lack of directing it to the list).<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">Usenet also did not behave that way.<br></blockquote><br>It sure can. That's what the "Followup-To:" header is for. In fact, <br>it's not uncommon to see it, particularly when posting to multiple <br>newsgroups initially.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">Web forums/threads do not behave that way.<br></blockquote><br>Broadcast / announcement web ""forums (read: news pages with no comment <br>field) sure do.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">I often refer coworkers and colleagues to outages@ threads (via the <br>Mailman archive web interface) when there are reported problems.<br></blockquote>Why couldn't you refer them to the outages-discuss thread?<br><br>Especially if outages-discuss included the original message? (See below.)<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">To tell people "if you want to read the replies to that issue, <br>you'll need to visit a different URL of the OTHER list, which <br>is..." is bizarre.<br></blockquote><br>That's a UX issue, one that I think that there are options to improve. <br>(See below.)<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">Nobody will take such a list seriously.<br></blockquote><br>I disagree.<br><br>Revised suggestion:<br> · All new messages to outages@ also get posted to outages-discussion@.<br> · All replies to outages@ get held for moderation.<br><br>Thus outages@ would be for new messages and moderator approved replies. <br> Outages-discussion@ would be everything.<br><br>People can pick the low volume outages@ or the higher volume <br>outages-discussion@.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">In summary, I am against the Reply-To recommendation.<br></blockquote><br>Fair enough.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">That said:<br><br>I am very much in favour of solving the actual problem, which I <br>believe is of a social nature. We should not be trying to solve bad <br>list netiquette via technological hoops. Instead, I suggest direct <br>action by list moderators: lecture those who don't understand proper <br>list etiquette, and yank the subs of (and blacklist) repeat offenders.<br></blockquote><br>I like the spirit.<br><br>But my experience is that there will always be people who can't / won't <br>be taught.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">Yes, the problem we're discussing will keep happening as new people <br>join the list (and don't read list rules or follow proper netiquette), <br>but that's life.<br></blockquote><br>So, by your own words, what you're suggesting will have known problems <br>and will fall short of preventing discussion on the outages@ mailing list.<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">More than ever today people need reminded of RFC 1855. Its age <br>doesn't matter; much of its content still applies.<br></blockquote><br>Sure.<br><br>What about the people that are perfectly well aware of it and choose to <br>ignore it?<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;">I think the SNR overall on these lists is tolerable, barring outages of <br>"major entities" (ex. Google, FB, etc.). During such times, I expect <br>increased noise, albeit briefly (e.g. for the day).<br></blockquote><br>Individual subscribers can configure filters in their MUA to mark <br>replies (messages starting with Re:, etc, or contain the References: / <br>In-Reply-To: headers) as read. Thus new messages will seek attention, <br>and allow them to ignore other messages.<br><br>I guess my opinion of society and faith in people's (lack of) netiquette <br>that I trust technical solutions a LOT more than I trust people to do <br>the correct thing.<br><br><br></pre></blockquote></div><br>-- <br>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</body></html>