[VoiceOps] LNP, tandems, etc.

Thu Aug 30 09:04:06 EDT 2018

Hi Mike, if you have money to throw at the problem, I think I'd just
hire Mary to track down and fix the problem for you.  She's obviously
knowledgeable, probably has enough contacts and is now familiar with
your problem.

Adam

-----Original Message-----
From: VoiceOps [mailto:voiceops-bounces at voiceops.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Hammett
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 7:17 AM
To: paul at timmins.net
Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems, etc.

1) How do I find an appropriate contact to ask?
2) From what Mary has said, Comcast is doing it wrong in my area. I
suppose it's useful to know how something is SUPPOSED to be done and
acknowledge that it very well could be very different in production.

-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com

Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com

----- Original Message -----
From: paul at timmins.net
To: voiceops at ics-il.net, voiceops at voiceops.org,
marylou at backuptelecom.com
Cc: voiceops at voiceops.org, marylou at backuptelecom.com
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:04:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems, etc.

<div dir="auto">The block owner often has a connection to the ILEC
tandem for their block in that range, but that's not always
necessary (I don't have any ilec FGD groups in the Chicago LATA, so
it's not universally necessary).<div dir="auto"><br></div><div
dir="auto">The only way to know for certain is to check the LERG or just
ask the carrier, which is what I usually do because I don't like
giving money to iconnectiv, since they tend to like to send me legally
cartoonish Cease and Descists every few years for the last
decade.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div
class="gmail_quote">On Aug 29, 2018 21:49, Mike Hammett
<voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:<br><blockquote><html><head><style>p {
margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000">So then in
my situation:
 https://www.telcodata.us/search-area-code-exchange-detail?npa=815&
amp;exchange=901<br><br><br>Comcast has 815-901 as
  well as
  815-901-0. Verizon Wireless has 1k-8k. 9k I guess would be either not
provisioned or default back to Comcast because they have the 10k block.
Because they have the parent 10k block, are they then required to have a
connection to the tandem I'm on anyway? The 1k block I now
understand could be elsewhere, but the 10k?<br><br>Interesting that
AT&T U-Verse voice isn't on legacy AT&T
infrastructure.<br><br><div><span></span><br><br>-----<br>Mike
Hammett<br>Intelligent Computing
Solutions<br>http://www.ics-il.com<br><br><br><br>Midwest Internet
Exchange<br>http://www.midwest-ix.com<br><br><span></span><br></div><br>
<hr id="zwchr"><div
style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:n
one;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From:
</b>paul at timmins.net<br><b>To: </b>voiceops at ics-il.net,
voiceops at voiceops.org, marylou at backuptelecom.com<br><b>Cc:
</b>voiceops at voiceops.org, marylou at backuptelecom.com<br><b>Sent:
</b>Wednesday,
  August 
 29, 2018 7:08:15 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems,
etc.<br><br><div dir="auto">Thousands blocks are basically just a fancy
LNP operation. Your tandem homing has to follow 10k blocks, and the 1k
blocks are basically mass ported to your LRN. Even if the numbers are
usually homed a certain way because they are in a ratecenter, they
won't be in this case because they are ported numbers and supposed
to be routed to your LRN. Example would be the Detroit LATA where there
are about 6 or so AT&T and other tandems. I'm homed off
WBFDMIMN20T. The local carrier has local/local toll trunks to me all
over the place, but all intercarrier calls and out of area calls other
than local traffic from AT&T LEC comes through my LRN 248-574-7678
off WBFDMIMN20T. This saves me from having to create FGD trunking ports
to all the other tandems in the region, only the barely used local/intra
trunking from AT&T ILEC, who has moved most customers to their
uverse VoIP
  affilia
 te here, and those don't use the local/intra trunks either.<div
dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It lowers my capex and opex having
potentially over provisioned/underutilized trunking all over the place,
saves numbers and decreases the need for splits and overlays, and even
saves at&t money. Only people who lose out are ribbon and metaswitch
(and whoever supports at&ts 5ESS and EWSD deployments) on licensing
and support costs for unneeded channels.</div></div><div
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 29, 2018 19:51,
Mike Hammett <voiceops at ics-il.net> wrote:<br><blockquote><style>p
{ margin: 0; }</style><div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><font
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:
10pt;">"</span></font><span style="font-family: "Times New
Roman"; font-size: medium; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">they give you market entry without the technic
 al need 
 to establish extra homing arrangements that aren't beneficial to
you."</span><div><br></div><div>Could you elaborate on
that?<br><br><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;"><span></span><br><br>-----<br>Mike
Hammett<br>Intelligent Computing
Solutions<br>http://www.ics-il.com<br><br><br><br>Midwest Internet
Exchange<br>http://www.midwest-ix.com<br><br><span></span><br></div><br>
<hr id="zwchr" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style:
normal; text-decoration: none;"><b>From: </b>paul at timmins.net<br><b>To:
</b>marylou at backuptelecom.com, ptimmins at clearrate.com,
voiceops at voiceops.org<br><b>Cc: </b>voiceops at voiceops.org,
ptimmins at clearrate.com<br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, August 29, 2018
6:05:39 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems,
etc.<br><br><div dir="auto">I've had some i
 nteresti
 ng arguments with other carriers regarding their obligation to connect
to us. Oh, you aren't connected where I'm homed? Go order
connectivity then.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">They have a
little more power to make demands when you have more than 24 standing
calls to them, but by and large with these stubborn providers we never
do, and when they have complained i've given them a location they
can install 1 way trunks to me at (as I have no desire to terminate
traffic to them directly), and they always balk and find some other way
of dealing with it because it was all well and good until it was their
money they were spending instead of mine. The trick ends up being to
never do 10k blocks when you don't have to. Thousands blocks
aren't just great for number consolidation, they give you market
entry without the technical need to establish extra homing arrangements
that aren't beneficial to you. Sure sometimes you're the guy who
has to own
  the 10k
  block, bu<blockquote><p>That's true if the ILEC has an agreement
with the tandem provider. There 
are some little ILECs that have their own tandem and refuse to use the 
big ILEC tandem provider! You have to look at the routing of the ILEC 
switch in the LERG to figure that out.

Mary Lou Carey

BackUP Telecom Consulting

Office: 615-771-7868 (temporary)

Cell: 615-796-1111

On 2018-08-29 11:38 AM, Paul Timmins wrote:
> You don't actually have to establish connectivity to all ILECs
in an
> area, even if you are porting out numbers from their ratecenters.
The
> ILECs already have to have a way to reach any other tandem in the
LATA
> so as long as you have an LRN homed on A tandem in the area, and
port
> your numbers to that, you're good to go.
> 
> The ILECs don't LIKE it, but if we cared what they truly liked
we'd
> all just leave the market.
> 
> On Aug 29, 2018 12:33, BackUP Telecom Consulting
>  wrote:
> 
> When there are multiple ILECs in a LATA like in LA - LATA 730, you
> would
> set up an interconnection point with each ILEC. So you'd have
one for
> the AT&T areas and one for the old Verizon areas. When you have
trunks
> 
> to both carriers in the LATA, you can use your own network to
switch
> traffic from the one LATA to the other LATA, but you can't
deliver it
> to
> the ILEC and expect them to hand it off to the other ILEC. It would
> work
> the same with the third party providers.......as long as they have
a
> connection in both ILEC areas, then they can use their own network
to
> deliver the traffic from the one ILEC area to the other ILEC area.
> 
> Mary Lou Carey
> 
> BackUP Telecom Consulting
> 
> Office: 615-771-7868 (temporary)
> 
> Cell: 615-796-1111
> 
> On 2018-08-28 08:18 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I thought everyone connected to the ILEC-hosted tandem
responsible
> for
>> the rate centers where the number blocks were assigned, but
that
> seems
>> to not always be the case when there are multiple ILEC-hosted
> tandems
>> in a LATA.
>> 
>> -----
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>> 
>> -------------------------
>> 
>> FROM: "Erik" 
>> TO: "Mike Hammett" 
>> CC: voiceops at voiceops.org
>> SENT: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 7:25:40 PM
>> SUBJECT: Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems, etc.
>> 
>> Most providers simply connect to the tandem at the ILEC. The
end
>> office transit termination and origination cost is SO LOW that
it
>> doesn't make since to have a switch or access point at the
end
> office.
>> Since most things are ILEC if not all are VOIP everything is
coming
>> from a centralize switch point. Hopefully all the 1970's
billing
>> methods will disappear.
>> 
>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Hammett 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Meaning if I thought were true? I had just assumed that
Inteliquent
>>> did have the connections to every tandem in the LATAs they
serve,
>>> given that (my thought) that you could only port numbers on
the
> same
>>> tandem, so universal coverage would require connections to
every
>>> tandem. We're actually looking at someone like
Inteliquent to
> expand
>>> our footprint.
>>> 
>>> So I'm supposed to be connected to every tandem in my
LATA? In my
>>> LATA, there are only two (I believe), but some LATAs (like
Chicago)
>>> have several. I'm supposed to drag a DS1 (or use
Inteliquent, etc.
>>> if available) to connect to each one, even if I don't
provide
>>> service in the rate centers traditionally served by that
tandem? It
>>> seems like Comcast threw a dart at a dart board in choosing
which
>>> tandem to connect to vs. going with the one that everyone
else in
>>> that town uses.
>>> 
>>> So then I could port a number from any rate center in my
LATA (say
>>> Savanna) and point it to my LRN, living off of a tandem
switch that
>>> the Savanna ILEC isn't connected to (from my outside
world
>>> perspective)? Is there even the LATA constraint? Given the
porting
>>> limitations I had experienced in the VoIP world, I assumed
it was a
>>> tandem-by-tandem basis.
>>> 
>>> So the LERG shows which tandem I need to send traffic to if
I want
>>> to talk to them, but they could send their outbound calls
to a
>>> different tandem? My current customer complaint is for
calls that
>>> we're sending to Comcast, apparently homed off of the
other tandem.
>>> 
>>> If everyone is supposed to be on every tandem, then why
can't the
>>> tandem I'm on just accept the calls I'm sending to
Comcast, since
>>> Comcast should be there? Obviously me not being on the
other tandem
>>> would affect inbound traffic to me.
>>> 
>>> Is there another service I should be paying Frontier for to
get me
>>> to the other tandem with some value-add service? I know
CenturyLink
>>> hops through almost every town going that way (former
LightCore and
>>> others before route). Frontier or CenturyLink may be able
to get me
>>> a DS1 to the other tandem if I need that.
>>> 
>>> I'm aware that I could still be completely missing the
mark.
>>> 
>>> BTW: Thanks for TelcoData. I subscribed a long time ago,
but
> haven't
>>> for many ages.
>>> 
>>> -----
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>> 
>>> -------------------------
>>> 
>>> FROM: "Paul Timmins" 
>>> TO: "Mike Hammett" 
>>> CC: voiceops at voiceops.org
>>> SENT: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 5:19:11 PM
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [VoiceOps] LNP, tandems, etc.
>>> 
>>> If that were true, you wouldn't be able to use
inteliquent (et al)
>>> as your access tandem. Everyone is supposed to be directly
or
>>> indirectly connected to every tandem in the LATA (which you
can't
>>> independently verify, as telcodata and the LERG both show
>>> terminating tandem information to reach that end office,
not what
>>> tandems the end office is hooked to to terminate calls.
>>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2018 17:47, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I thought you had to be on the same tandem to port a
number, but
>>> with what our tandem operator (Frontier) is telling me,
this isn't
>>> the case.
>>> 
>>> Comcast ported a number from us in town A. The LRN they
pointed to
>>> is based in town B (per TelcoData). The tandem generally
used by
>>> carriers in both towns is based in town B. Naturally, we
send
>>> traffic to that tandem.
>>> 
>>> The operator of that tandem is telling us that the LRN is
actually
>>> homed off of a different tandem in our LATA (operated by
>>> CenturyLink) in town C. Unfortunately, I can't
corroborate this
>>> information with TelcoData the only rate center I see off
of that
>>> tandem in TelcoData is an AT&T town next door.
>>> 
>>> Where can I read up authoritatively on the porting
requirements
> that
>>> would apply to this and related bits of info I should know?
>>> 
>>> I'm checking on our LERG access as I know that has the
> authoritative
>>> information, but I don't have that access at the
moment. Maybe
> we're
>>> not subscribed to it.
>>> 
>>> Number NPA-NXX in town A:
>>> 
>> 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-area-code-exchange-detail?npa=815&ex
change=991
> [1]
>>> 
>>> LRN NPA-NXX in town B:
>>> 
>> 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-area-code-exchange-detail?npa=815&ex
change=901
> [2]
>>> 
>>> Tandem in town B:
>>> 
>> 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-switches-by-tandem-clli?cllicode=DKLBILX
A50T
> [3]
>>> Tandem in town C:
>>> 
>> 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-switches-by-tandem-clli?cllicode=DIXNILX
A50T
> [4]
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> -----
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>> 
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange
>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> VoiceOps mailing list
>>> VoiceOps at voiceops.org
>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>> _______________________________________________
>> VoiceOps mailing list
>> VoiceOps at voiceops.org
>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> _______________________________________________
> VoiceOps mailing list
> VoiceOps at voiceops.org
> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-area-code-exchange-detail?npa=815&ex
change=991
> [2]
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-area-code-exchange-detail?npa=815&ex
change=901
> [3] 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-switches-by-tandem-clli?cllicode=DKLBILX
A50T
> [4] 
>
https://www.telcodata.us/search-switches-by-tandem-clli?cllicode=DIXNILX
A50T
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