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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My apologies, upon a careful re-reading
of your e-mail I retract my statement about it being out of date,
as you may have just phrased part of it unclearly (at least to
this reader):<br>
<br>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">"If
you choose to allow the customer to move their phone then you
either have to place a sticker on the phone stating that 911
service will not be available to the customer OR you have to
provide the customer with a way to change their address
information when they do move the phone."</span><br>
<br>
I believe FCC regulations clearly state that if the phone can be
moved you must provide at least one mechanism for customers to
update the physical location information There has been no "or"
in this one since the interim rules went away years ago. But I
may be misunderstanding your intent here.<br>
<br>
In any case, the scenario that Carlos described sounds a lot more,
to me at least, like the customer saying "These phones are going
to be location B but we want to save money by having the PSAP
think the call is coming from location A," rather than "Oh, yes,
well, sometimes our employees might sneak phones out of the
building; what can you do?"<br>
<br>
By the way, if you read the Vantage Communications document, I
believe you'll find the FCC never complained about us not
delivering 911 calls. They complained about us delivering 911
calls to the wrong PSAP for the physical location of the phone.
Which sounds pretty much like what Carlos's customer is asking him
to do if the employees live far away enough from work.<br>
<br>
And yes, I quite agree that VoIP didn't originate many of the
problems with 911--just made them worse. <br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--Jon Radel
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jradel@vantage.com">jradel@vantage.com</a>
267-756-1014</pre>
On 1/18/13 3:51 PM, Mary Lou Carey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:0fc201cdf5bd$880e1220$982a3660$@com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
just wanted to point out one thing. The waiver I mentioned
is NOT to avoid providing 911 service for the customer as it
sounds to be the case in Vantage's situation. You MUST
provide 911 service for the customer. The waiver simply
states that the 911 service is for the single location that
the phone was installed and while the phone might work if
you move it somewhere else, the 911 service will not! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
would fully agree that relying on waivers is risky business
- especially when it comes to 911. When McDonald's can be
held liable for someone spilling hot coffee on themselves
when they stuck it between her legs, you can most certainly
be sued for not providing 911 service when the customer
moved their phone. My suggestion would be to sign up for the
roaming ALI database service so the customers can update
their location information whenever they move the phone and
then program the phones so that every time the phone is
powered up, the customer has to update their location in the
ALI database. That's really the safest way to operate!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
remember going on an interview years ago to a retail company
(who is no longer in business) and one of the questions they
brought up was a problem they were dealing with at the
moment. They had two locations across the freeway from each
other and when someone called the 911 from one location, the
ambulance ended up showing up at the wrong building. Through
a little investigation we found out that regardless of which
location someone dialed 911 from, the calls were all routed
to one number in their PBX. That one number happened to be
associated with the main building so when 911 was called,
that's where the ambulance showed up. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mary
Lou Carey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">BackUP
Telecom Consulting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marylou@backuptelecom.com">marylou@backuptelecom.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Office:
615-791-9969 x 2001<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org">voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org">mailto:voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Jon Radel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 18, 2013 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org">voiceops@voiceops.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [VoiceOps] 911 address policy for
company phones at home<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Unless I'm missing something here, you're
not proposing to sell service to a stationary location and
warning the customer that 911 will break if they fail to
notify you that they've moved the phone, but you're selling
service to stationary location A when the customer has
already notified you that they'll really be using the phone
in stationary location B. That really doesn't sound like
the same thing at all. They've already told you that the
phone is going to be in location B and you're proposing to
not handle 911 appropriately. (My apologies if I've
misunderstood the situation.)<br>
<br>
Be warned that the FCC has clearly signaled that they don't
find waivers involving 911 the slightest bit amusing. See <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fcc.gov/document/vantage-communications">http://www.fcc.gov/document/vantage-communications</a>
for their side of our story. You might find the references
to actual regulatory language useful.<br>
<br>
I also find myself impelled to ask: Are you actually
pricing this in such a way that there's a line item for 911
service with a dollar figure next to it? That's just
inviting the customers to try haggle, and could be construed
that you consider 911 optional rather than a fundamental
part of your service. Or is this all just a side-effect of
charging for the DIDs in the additional rate center(s) where
the customer's employees live?<br>
<br>
Bottom line, however, my advice is that you're treading into
waters where you *really* *really* want to talk to a
competent lawyer with a specialty in this arena and not take
random advice on a mailing list. Not even mine. :-)
Getting this wrong could conceivably destroy your company.<br>
<br>
At the very least, compare what the FCC is currently saying
against what Mary Lou is saying, some of which appears to be
dangerously out of date.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>--Jon Radel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jradel@vantage.com">jradel@vantage.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>267-756-1014<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/18/13 1:01 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Great answer, thanks. This really
covers what the customer is asking for, which is basically
the stationary option (all phones show one
CLID/ANI/location). I will advise them that it's legal,
just not advised, and get a written signature for
liability.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We do use a 911 service provider,
we're not a CLEC. We currently provide the ability for
a customer to have an address for each individual phone
if they choose.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:48 AM, Mary
Lou Carey <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marylou@backuptelecom.com" target="_blank">marylou@backuptelecom.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Legally
VOIP providers have the option to offer roaming
VOIP services or stationary VOIP services. If
you offer roaming VOIP you are required to
provide your customers with a way to update
their address information whenever they move
their phone. It can either be a website they log
into to change their address or a 24 hour phone
number they call, but either way you MUST
provide it if you allow them to roam. If you do
allow them to roam you have to get your 911
service from a VOIP 911 provider (who has
connections to every PSAP in the country) or be
connected to every PSAP in the country yourself
because a connection to the LEC network will
only cover you for the counties or parishes that
you establish trunks for. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Most
VOIP providers I know sign up with a VOIP 911
provider because they cover a large area so it's
cheaper to do that then have a multitude of
connections through the LEC. If you decide to go
with a stationary VOIP product, you must have
the customer sign a waiver stating that they are
aware that if they move their phone they will
not receive 911 service. I believe the FCC ruled
in the last year or so that if you also have to
place some type of sticker on the phone so that
the end user who uses the phone knows 911 is not
available when you move it rather than just the
person who ordered the phones. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So
the decision is not your customer's, but yours.
If you choose to allow the customer to move
their phone then you either have to place a
sticker on the phone stating that 911 service
will not be available to the customer OR you
have to provide the customer with a way to
change their address information when they do
move the phone. While you could offer either
option to customers based on how much they
wanted to pay, I would think liability wise it
would be better if you either offered it to
everyone or no one at all because it would be
too easy for one of your employees to make a
mistake in setting someone up and not put them
on the right plan.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Mary
Lou Carey</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">BackUP
Telecom Consulting</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marylou@backuptelecom.com"
target="_blank">marylou@backuptelecom.com</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Office:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:615-791-9969%20x%202001"
target="_blank">615-791-9969 x 2001</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org"
target="_blank">voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org"
target="_blank">voiceops-bounces@voiceops.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Carlos Alvarez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 18, 2013 9:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org"
target="_blank">voiceops@voiceops.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [VoiceOps] 911 address policy
for company phones at home</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We
have a customer who wants us to block 911 on
the phones that they give to key employees to
take home. They don't want to pay fees for
911 service at each home (which is stupid,
since it's so cheap, but that's a digression).
I told them this is "illegal" but they asked
to see the law, and I can't actually find
something that says so. Yet that's the common
knowledge around the industry. I do have the
FCC documents that require an ITSP to provide
the service, but the customer contends it
doesn't apply to this specific case.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">So
two questions...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Does
anyone here allow their customers to do
this?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">What
is the best document to give the customer to
support our position?<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">--
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Carlos
Alvarez<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">TelEvolve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:602-889-3003" target="_blank">602-889-3003</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Carlos Alvarez<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">TelEvolve<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">602-889-3003<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>VoiceOps mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:VoiceOps@voiceops.org">VoiceOps@voiceops.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops">https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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