[c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)

Nick Cutting ncutting at edgetg.com
Fri Jun 22 13:49:42 EDT 2018

I like Cisco - feels good when I type commands into the CLI. 

 I have faith in my fingers

Having too strong an opinion is bad for your internal chill zone, do not be mean to cisco man, not on this list !

-----Original Message-----
From: cisco-nsp <cisco-nsp-bounces at puck.nether.net> On Behalf Of Tails Pipes
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Sami Joseph <sami.joseph at gmail.com>
Cc: cisco-nsp NSP <cisco-nsp at puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: [c-nsp] Leaked Video or Not (Linux and Cisco for internal Sales folks)

This message originates from outside of your organisation.

Copied from smart people :

Welcome to the world of coopetition. Microsoft has SQL Server running on Linux. They also sell Windows Server licenses. Some customers want one or the other, so they give them what they want. Other customers want a solution, and they can get it.

I think enough customers (not all of them, but an increasing number) have said that open is where it's at. Cisco has been preparing but holding to its proprietary line to capture as much revenue as possible before they are forced to change. At the same time, they have to turn around the ship and change their products.

Its not easy changing a big, fat company after 20 years of doing the same thing over and over while making huge profits for little effort.

Thats the problem they are engaging with. Nearly everyone is doing better, faster, easier, more reliable networking that Cisco. Most often, at a cheaper price too. Its taking time for customers to make the switch but its a slow and steady migration.

Cisco knows this at least. And the moves to subscription licenses are an attempt to extract more money from fewer customers. I think they have chosen to move up market, charge more and walk away from the customers who are willing to go whitebox/disagg/unbundled/open/DIY. They can't win so they won't compete. Its a obvious strategy.

That means bigger enterprise customers who don't care how much money they spend will pay extra.


On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Sami Joseph <sami.joseph at gmail.com> wrote:

> Packets will be pushed in Linux when Broadcom releases SDKs, Mellanox 
> already did...i guess
> https://netdevconf.org/0x12/session.html?building-a-
> better-nos-with-linux-and-switchdev
> Description
> Whitebox switches, disaggregation, and open networking are all the 
> rage today. While the choice in white box switches and "open" 
> networking operating systems (NOS) has proliferated in recent years, 
> switching ASICs are still predominantly programmed using SDKs and 
> those SDKs are primarily driven by userspace controllers. The 
> adherence to SDKs imposes a design constraint that has a huge impact 
> on the architecture of a NOS, its choices for user APIs (how the 
> switch is configured, debugged and
> monitored) and the performance of the control plane.
> Over the past few years a lot of effort has been put into a new 
> approach for Linux - i.e., switchdev and related in-kernel APIs. The 
> result allows for a simpler, cleaner NOS that fully leverages the 
> Linux kernel with the ASIC managed like any other hardware in the 
> system -- by a driver running in the kernel. However, adoption of 
> switchdev by ASIC vendors has been lacking, with only one ASIC vendor 
> at this point writing a driver that works with switchdev.
> This talk discusses typical software architectures for network 
> operating systems and introduces a path for transitioning SDK based 
> solutions to the switchdev model.
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 7:00 AM, Tails Pipes <tailsnpipes at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Mojatau, Big switch, cumulus, arista and even juniper are trying to 
>> move networking to a better place, but not cisco. they do contribute 
>> to it, there is xdp, ebpf, quagga, vrfs in linux...etc < do you want 
>> to deny those ? just because you have a ccie and you are comfortable 
>> being a cisco network guy, well you dont live alone in the world, 
>> others also need to be able to run networks without having to work on 
>> it for 10 years.
>> What do you mean that no one is pushing packets in linux ? Isnt that 
>> the point of all the linux networking ? are you saying that the 
>> vendors mentioned are closing their work ? can you give an educated 
>> opinion who exactly is not allowing packets to be pushed in linux ? 
>> is it Linus trovalds and the NetDev folks or is it the community of 
>> people like you that are so comfortable in their own skin that they 
>> dont allow innovation to take course.
>> Linux and BSD are both operating systems that are well documented and 
>> many people can understand and work with but if you are so 
>> comfortable with IOS variants, that doesnt mean that every one 
>> is....can i operate networks without having years of experience and 
>> implicitly forced support by cisco, I am sick of having to learn all 
>> the cisco specific terms to all sorts of different boxes and 
>> technologies, all their tools and super expensive AS engagements, but 
>> thats not what this post is about. its about how a company is making 
>> use of free software and refusing to allow it to flourish, the 
>> microsoft of networking is cisco.
>> https://blogs.cisco.com/news/myth-busting-white-box-switches
>> -are-no-bargain
>> This is about a company that smiles in my face, telling me that Linux 
>> is bad for me and they are using it in all their products, in that 
>> video, the speaker says we can leverage all the linux work for free.
>> Is Cisco working on XDP ? https://netdevconf.org/0x12/schedule.html I 
>> dont see Cisco's name here but others are.
>> can you easily answer this question ? why packets are not pushed in 
>> linux ?
>> is it because of big switch, cumulus, pica8 ?
>> can you push packets in linux without writing code to do that ? who 
>> is writing that code ?
>> this is supposedly a community effort, something that older 
>> generations dont understand.
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Saku Ytti <saku at ytti.fi> wrote:
>> > Hey Tails Pipes,
>> >
>> > What do you mean by 'not making sense with the defense against open 
>> > source'?
>> >
>> > All their operating systems run linux, IOS-XE, IOS-XR, NXOS and more.
>> >
>> > And no one is (well at least shouldn't be) surprised that the 
>> > obvious motivation that drives linux use, is that you get booting 
>> > OS, for free, which actually works. Almost no vendor no longer 
>> > maintains their own booting OS. Huawei, Juniper, Cisco, Arista all 
>> > boot Linux. Nokia is one of the few who still write their own 
>> > booting OS (forked off vxworks years ago), which also means they 
>> > can't bring easily and cheaply new control-plane HW, and possible 
>> > reason why they run Cavium control-plane is because they've not written code to boot XEON.
>> >
>> > I see no reason why the video would be taken down, I didn't watch 
>> > it in its entirety as I'm not curious about Linux primer at this 
>> > time, but the sections you highlighted are in no way controversial.
>> >
>> > I'm unsure what argument you're trying to make about Cisco, open 
>> > source or Cumulus. Cumulus is, in my mind, no special vendor. Just 
>> > another vendor buying COTS chips and writing OS on them, like many 
>> > others. I'm not saying it's bad thing, I'm just saying they're in 
>> > no way disruptive in my mind. They're not doing packet pushing in 
>> > Linux, no one is. It's just booting OS, and OS to configure the 
>> > forwarding-plane.
>> > Now some are looking anxiously at XEON for packet pushing, but even 
>> > in that case, you're not actually using Linux to push packets, 
>> > granted you're using open source, DPDK or equivalent, but even in 
>> > that case, the cost for PPS from INTC XEON is far worse than it is 
>> > from BRCM. And of course neither ITNC nor BRCM are in any meaningful way more 'open'.
>> >
>> > What would be disruptive is someone openly publishing their 
>> > ASIC/NPU specs and P4 compiler, so that we use vanillla linux 
>> > kernel to drive the forwarding-plane.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 03:50, Tails Pipes <tailsnpipes at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I went to CiscoLive last week, and i understood that they are
>> definitely
>> > > not making sense with the defense against open source and the
>> direction
>> > of
>> > > LBN (Linux Based Networking) However, they still like to use 
>> > > Linux and
>> > make
>> > > money out of it. (minute 09:13), complete and utter bullish hypocrisy.
>> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyC_T-u8Wsw
>> > >
>> > > Not sure if this is a leaked video or not, but i am kind of 
>> > > surprised
>> > that
>> > > this company is openly admitting these kind of ideas.
>> > >
>> > > What really ticked me to share this is when the executive in the 
>> > > video (Chuck Duffy) is openly admitting the competitive pressure, 
>> > > and how
>> IOS
>> > is
>> > > inferior to Linux (minute 01:07), the way he spoke about IOS was
>> > inferring
>> > > that its classic or legacy and thats why its picked up in all 
>> > > their products.
>> > >
>> > > What i wasnt able to comprehend at all is why he mentioned Big 
>> > > switch
>> and
>> > > cumulus on minute 02:50, is this like a slip of truth or a real
>> defining
>> > > moment of a vendor’s life saying that  open stuff is a disruptive 
>> > > architecture ?
>> > >
>> > > Is Cisco moving to. subscription model because of Linux ? Is it 
>> > > that difficult to change Cisco to go Linux all the way ?
>> > >
>> > > ps. : it will probably be taken down soon.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > cisco-nsp mailing list  cisco-nsp at puck.nether.net 
>> > > https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
>> > > archive at http://puck.nether.net/pipermail/cisco-nsp/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >   ++ytti
>> >
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